"the zombies wouldn’t hypothesize Zombie World. Nothing in that world would ever have known consciousness, so they wouldn’t be able to think about it.)"
Whatever such things would be, they wouldn't be p-zombies. The defining characteristic of p-zombies is third-person indistinguishability from us. Observing them not positing p-zombies would be a third-person distinguishing characteristic.
Thanks Matt - always a great read. Re strategy; what are your thoughts on the massive increase in chicken consumption? It seems like moral arguments re leaving out chickens are dramatically failing not dissimilar to vegan ones - or do you think there hasn’t been a concerted effort? It’s been so disheartening to see more groups now eat chickens then ever, even animal advocates I know advocate for eating chickens instead of beef due to environmental footprint (see Crossover Meats - making chicken meat taste like beef). It all seems so futile I can only see a genuine technological solution that requires no cultural change
Not to be self-centered or self-important, but there are basically just a few people in the whole world making the "please don't eat chickens" argument, on a ~$100k / year budget.
Everyone knows enough vegans such that you can make jokes easily. (Seth Meyers had some good ones in his latest special, "Dad Man Walking.") And as you say, basically everyone makes the anti-red-meat argument.
I doubt 1 in 1,000 people have ever heard a "please don't eat chickens" message. I'm not saying it would resonate with people, just that if people heard the idea regularly, it might slow the stampede to eating chickens.
I personally think that is important because we seem quite far away from any supply-side / food tech solution. It feels further away than 10 years ago.
I think that makes sense (for now!) - would love to see some kind of small study on this - my own experience has seen very small success, (my wife my mum and my daughter!)
Whatever human consciousness is, it's just a bunch of neurons organized in some way by genes, firing electrical signals and neurotransmitters in networks and being influenced by hormones, and upbringing, and culture. Thus, it's something of the same nature as an animal's, it's just to a different degree.
Consciousness doesn't, I think, emerge at any particular point. It keeps evolving. To say that consciousness suddenly emerges would be like religious people who believe in evolution but say only humans have a soul. From what generation, from what childbirth, did a soul suddenly arrive?
I'm totally with you. But it is truly shocking to me, a firm materialist and determinist, that matter and energy evolved into subjective self-awareness. Truly "miraculous." [sic]
Well said. Also, excellent point regarding the relative amount of suffering-from-death for a wild caught fish. I wonderful if it would be helpful to divide suffering into anthropogenic and “natural” and focus on the former.
"the zombies wouldn’t hypothesize Zombie World. Nothing in that world would ever have known consciousness, so they wouldn’t be able to think about it.)"
Whatever such things would be, they wouldn't be p-zombies. The defining characteristic of p-zombies is third-person indistinguishability from us. Observing them not positing p-zombies would be a third-person distinguishing characteristic.
:-D
Thanks Matt - always a great read. Re strategy; what are your thoughts on the massive increase in chicken consumption? It seems like moral arguments re leaving out chickens are dramatically failing not dissimilar to vegan ones - or do you think there hasn’t been a concerted effort? It’s been so disheartening to see more groups now eat chickens then ever, even animal advocates I know advocate for eating chickens instead of beef due to environmental footprint (see Crossover Meats - making chicken meat taste like beef). It all seems so futile I can only see a genuine technological solution that requires no cultural change
You're really lifting me up here, Amit!
;-)
Not to be self-centered or self-important, but there are basically just a few people in the whole world making the "please don't eat chickens" argument, on a ~$100k / year budget.
Everyone knows enough vegans such that you can make jokes easily. (Seth Meyers had some good ones in his latest special, "Dad Man Walking.") And as you say, basically everyone makes the anti-red-meat argument.
I doubt 1 in 1,000 people have ever heard a "please don't eat chickens" message. I'm not saying it would resonate with people, just that if people heard the idea regularly, it might slow the stampede to eating chickens.
I personally think that is important because we seem quite far away from any supply-side / food tech solution. It feels further away than 10 years ago.
I think that makes sense (for now!) - would love to see some kind of small study on this - my own experience has seen very small success, (my wife my mum and my daughter!)
Whatever human consciousness is, it's just a bunch of neurons organized in some way by genes, firing electrical signals and neurotransmitters in networks and being influenced by hormones, and upbringing, and culture. Thus, it's something of the same nature as an animal's, it's just to a different degree.
Consciousness doesn't, I think, emerge at any particular point. It keeps evolving. To say that consciousness suddenly emerges would be like religious people who believe in evolution but say only humans have a soul. From what generation, from what childbirth, did a soul suddenly arrive?
I'm totally with you. But it is truly shocking to me, a firm materialist and determinist, that matter and energy evolved into subjective self-awareness. Truly "miraculous." [sic]
It is indeed worthy of awe!
Well said. Also, excellent point regarding the relative amount of suffering-from-death for a wild caught fish. I wonderful if it would be helpful to divide suffering into anthropogenic and “natural” and focus on the former.
Yeah, we should definitely think about things in terms of what we can influence. And I'd love to see people stop mythologizing "Nature."